Mike Myers went to the podium and asked why the millage going on Nov ballot does not have an expiration date.

Mayor Brown thanked him for the question and the ability to correct what was stated in News Herald Article which is that the new interpretion of the MCLA governing this does not permit an expiration.

Clint Riley went to the podium with specific questions about the ballot.

I will let him him fill us in on that.

My comment: One thing Mayor Brown did say...that the new road millage does not have an expiration and that we will increase to 18.67mils until Headlee reduces it.

Mr. Kudrick went to the podium about the road millage going on the ballot. He is concerned that this tax has no expiration date. This again, confirmed by Mayor Brown who said that the legal counsel said the wording had to be the way the ballot reads.

My Comment: We should get another opinion and/or put another ballot on that would have a specific amount and timeframe.

Mayor Brown voiced his concern over the no expiration date.

Another resident, business owner and leader of a group that meets at minimum monthly (I didn't catch the name) she is concerned about the parking issues with the Condo Project.

She says her club meets monthly basis plus events etc. She said that they require at minimum 30 parking spots.
Hall seats 90 people.

She says she has called the building dept with no answers...she has called others and still no answers so she felt that going to the podium was a way to get an answer.

Mayor Brown states that they are not in any position to comment on this parking issue in detail.

I "think" the lady at the podium is one of the owners of the Hall next to Park Resturant.

Councilman Higgins suggested that she contact Bill Hatley so that he can show her the plans.

She wants to know if the parking lots that will be left over after the Project is done...will the parking lots be dedicated to the businesses or will the condo visitors/owners be able to use the spots.

Mayor Brown states the parking left over will be for public parking.

John Oates (sp?) went to the podium ater the lady was cut off because she over her 5 minutes.

The man wanted the lady to take over the last of his five minutes. Mayor Brown states that podium time is NOT a "transferably commodity".

The president of the club George (Kaukis SP?). He states that mayor and council should take better care of the residents and businesses in this community.

The parking spaces that are left over after the condo project is done leaves very little parking for all the businesses not to mention the darkness danger of the area.

Councilman Disanto says....not all the mayor and council sold the lot for one dollar.

Councilman Higgins states pretty much the same thing.

Mr. George Kaukis (sp?) states regardless ...our existing mayor & council needs to take responsibility of the impacts of these decisions that have or will be made.

Mayor Brown states that he was NOT on council when this decision was made. (yep, that's what he said)

But the project will create a tax revenue for the city.
They had public hearing after public hearing with boards, businesses owners, etc. and the project moved forward after a very strong diligence before moving forward on this project.

Another member of the club (Karian club???) she is concerned about the safety ..will there be arrangements before the develpment is completed to provide decent and safe parking.

Mayor Brown states the plans were already discussed earlier about the slant parking, other parking...etc.

Mr. Paul Shipley went to the podium about the millage on the ballot that has no expiration.He states that M&C is asking us to make decisions that our grandchildren will be paying for.

Mayor Brown said that the bond council said this was the only way the ballot could be written.


Stay turned.

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"Sometimes we must serve in order to lead"
by Unknown

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FYI : I added more residents to the podium to my first post.

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Oops...FYI: I added Mr. Shipley to the first post. Sorry....

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That's just not true. The new interpretation says they cannot call it a renewal. But nothing in MCLA says a millage can't have an expiration date. Most DO have an expiration. LP chose not to have one this time.

Here's just one example: Grosse Ile is voting this year on a three-year millage renewal.

http://www.detnews.com/2005/editori.../A18-309965.htm

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For those who don't know, my name in the real world is Clint Riley.

I confirmed that the cap on our millage will stay the same.

I confirmed that the millage will, indeed, go up from what it currently is. Here's how it works:

• We are currently set at 15.67 mills, with 2.67 added to the road fund (18.34 total).
• For a period of time (unknown to Mayor Brown), this proposal seeks to raise the road millage by another 3 mills in addition to what is already levied. If I understand correctly, this will put us right at the 20 mill cap.
• Under the Headly Act, the old millage will expire (the 2.67), thus taking us down to 18.67 (up from 18.34).
• There is no expiration on the new millage. According to Mayor Brown, it will be recalculated annually...and he cannot determine when it will drop, nor by how much.

I attempted to gain an understanding behind the Bond Attorney's advice that the city could not word the ballot as a renewal. I cited Michigan Compiled Law, Chapter 211, Section 11, 4th Sentence that states not only can they, but that they shall. Mayor Brown acknowledged that the Bond Attorney's were aware of this provision, and that they discussed it. But he further asserted that "for whatever reason", they advised the council that it could not be called a renewal.

For all of those reading this, here is what the MCL states:
I'm not an attorney...but I don't feel I need to be an attorney to understand what this means. It means that if the city is asking us to renew the road millage that is set to expire in 2005, that the ballot question shall ask for a renewal.

Several times during our interlude, Mayor Brown insisted that the Bond Attorneys were the ones who advised the council that it could not be referred to as a renewal, despite their acknowledgement of the law.

Do you know what this means, folks? It means that this millage renewal is not a renewal. It is a brand new millage that looks alot like our millage that is expiring. But why?

Because the old millage has a 5 year expiration date. If we are to renew the old millage, it will expire in 2010. The ballot is not asking for an expiration. Therefore it must be worded as a whole new millage...and not as a renewal.

That's how it works. The proposal on the ballot is not a renewal...it's a replacement. And it seeks to replace our existing 2.67 mills with 3 mills that do not expire.

Mayor Brown cut me off after my 5 minutes, despite the fact that I was politely just trying to understand the proposal that they are asking voters to pass. I have to admit that I'm a little upset that the taxpayers are only afforded a 5 minute window of time to understand a millage that could affect us for the next 30 years (or more).

I really tried to keep an open mind about Mayor Brown tonight. I figured that since I was asking fair questions in a non-accusatory tone (I even gave him and the council the benefit of the doubt several times), that he would perhaps be a little more helpful. He wasn't. In fact, he had a few "private conversations" with City Attorney Zelenak while I was speaking...causing me to have to stop talking so that he could finish his conversation and return his attention to the podium. And his answers kept reverting back to it being the recommendation of the Bond Attorneys and that he wasn't sure of their reason.

We're talking about tens of millions of taxpayer dollars at stake. I would have asked some questions of the Bond Attorneys if I were a member of the council. Apparantly I'm crazy for thinking this should have been done...because Mayor Brown seemed content with his answers.

I was about to read the law and ask City Attorney Zelenak to interpret it for everyone (he is an attorney, afterall), but I was cut off by Mayor Brown for having exceeded my 5-minute time alotment.

I would like to go back to the podium next Monday to follow up on some additional questions:

• Whos decision was it to hire the Bond Attorneys?
  • Was it voted by the council?
• Was an alternate opinion sought? (Attorneys can be, and frequently are, wrong in their interpretation of the law.)
• If a second opinion was not sought, then why not? This is a very important issue involving tens of millions of dollars. We need to be sure it's done right.
• With a yes or no answer, is this millage a replacement and not a renewal? The replacement being an exact carbon-copy of the expiring millage, except with the exlusion of an expiration date?
• Did the Bond Attorneys cite the law that precludes the inclusion of an expiration? If not, why didn't anyone ask for the law to be cited so that they could be sure it the information was accurate? Can City Attorney Zelenak look into the Michigan Compiled Law and state which section covers this alledged fact?

Unfortunately, next Monday evening (the 19th), I have a prior engagement that I cannot break. If someone can take these questions to the council and get these answers, I would be much obliged.

Side Note: A gentleman in the audience approached me after my appearance at the podium and asked if I was "Veritas Scriptor" from the website. I answered yes, but returned my attention to the ensuing council meeting. I didn't have an opportunity to formally introduce myself and I appologize. I wasn't trying to be rude, but I wanted to catch the rest of the citizen communications. I planned to introduce myself to you after the meeting, but I had to leave before the Council Oral Reports were complete. I'm guessing that since you called me by my YLP name that you are a member here. I didn't ask who you were because I didn't feel it was my place. If you wanted to identify yourself, I'm sure you would have. I just wanted to clear this little bit up and let you know that I wasn't trying to be rude.

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Wolverine (09-12-05), MINDVTR (09-13-05), RubberArm (09-13-05), Mayday (09-13-05)

Precisely the point in my previous post, Wolverine. I'm glad you caught that too.

This millage is NOT a renewal as the Council is trying to call it. They legally cannot call it a renewal because it doesn't have an expiration. If it carried the same expiration as the expiring millage, then it would be a renewal.

They cannot legally call it a renewal because it is not a renewal. It is a similar replacement...the only difference being the lack of the expiration.

I'm speculating Mayor Brown didn't want me to get to this question, which is why he cut me off. In the past when I have asked questions about ballot proposals, he afforded me extra time because he felt it was "important" for taxpayers to understand what they were voting for. But somehow, he didn't feel it was so important this time around.

This is why I would like someone to take the questions I posted to next weeks meeting. I'd do it myself, but I have plans I cannot rearrange.

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Well Here We Go Sssssssssssssssssssssllllllllluuuuuuuuuuurrrrrrrrrppppppppppppppppppppp
You Know And I Know It Was Worded That Way Cause It Is A New Tax.brown And His Cronies Are Trying To Pull Another Slick One.we Need To Stand Up One After Another When Brown Pulls This 5 Min Business And Each Ask The Very Same Question.ssssssslllllluuurrrp Ssllluuurrpp,how Much More Can The Taxpayers Take To Pay.

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Moral freedom is not the right to do what we want,but the power to do what we ought.

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what you all need to understand is that the amount of money generated by this millage is a drop in the bucket. New road cost approx. $1 million/mile. I think there is approx. 125 miles of city roads in our community. You do the math. The prop. millage will generate approx. 3 million/year at max. and will be reduced over time due to Headlee roll back

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I think you mean "Claude" Shipley

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recordar la yocorazon

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Claude is a great guy. I really like him.

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Yes, I am with you on this one....

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If I understood the conversation last night between Veritas and the mayor, it is quite clear why they cannot legally call it a renewal.

Not only is it not the same millage, but if I understood correctley, the road millages will overlap for a short time. Is that right? If so, then it is quite clear that these are two separate millages. One is not the renewal of the other.

And this whole thing about not being able to put an expiration date on it smells like rotten eggs! I wonder how many bond attorneys they had to contact to find one that interpreted it that way!

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Veritas Scriptor (09-13-05)

RubberArm, I would like to bequeath my follow up questions to you. You always do a most excellent job stating the facts and your opinions during deliberation.

What say you to finishing things up next Monday?

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During the televised Special Meeting on the millage issue there was a lengthy discussion about calling it a renewal. They wanted to say renewal but it was explained to council why they could not.

Let's give them credit for a little bit of sense. Of course they would like to say it is a renewal. It would be easier to sell to the voter, but they cannot. Some seem to feel there is some sort of conspiracy linked to it.

On the other hand, I could have sworn part of the reason they could not use the term renewal, was because it had fallen from 3.00 to 2.67. To say it was a renewal, they would have to renew at 2.67. Anyone else remember this discussion? Anyone watch the millage meeting?

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Sorry, but I choose to remain anonymous.

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Veritas Scriptor (09-13-05)

I would like to give credit to the president of the club for dressing appropriately.

Everyone else going to the podium looked like they were at the beach.

If you want respect, you must earn respect. Dressing in a t-shirt and bermuda shorts doesn't cut it.

I thank you.

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A Five Year Millage? Yes
A non-limited Millage? Never
Vote NO on Proposal R

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Does the new camera system show people's legs??

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I know Leslie, it almost sounds like Mr. Magoo was there in person, doesn't it?

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Arctic Cat Thundercat Test Pilot

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Yeppo!

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I think it is obvious by their appearance that they are not wearing dress slacks (they certainly are not wearing a dress shirt and tie).

People going to the podium want to make an impression. I don't think they realize the type of impression they are really making.

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