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#1  
Old 02-22-05, 11:21 pm
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Councilman Kandes...why did you want the investigation into the release of the ERI


On one hand you come bouncing outta the gait like a bull and apologize to Mayor Brown for bringing the misc resolution to cause an investigation into WHO released the ERI documentation to the News Herald and other the other hand you passively state in tonight's meeting that Lincoln Park's ERI documentatation was freely given to other cities and WE THE LP TAXPAYERS and RESIDENTS are stonewalled with a FOIA or pay $1.00 a copy.

What is wrong with this picture???? Or better yet...... what is your major malfunction when it comes to keeping your bosses (WE THE TAXPAYERS) abreast of all the details?

By the way just how IS the investigation coming along? Has it been determined who released the ERI documentation to the News Herald illegally?

What is the status of Ed Zelenak's position because he did receive a copy of the ERI documenatation the very same nite (per Duchane) as the M/C on July 26th.

I'm talking about the same Ed Zelenak who took the ERI and is now under contract with City of LP. You know the same EZ that received the unapproved by M/C ERI documentation before anyone else (other than M/C and Duchane) received.

What is the status on these two issues Mr. I want the residents to know I am protecting our communty.

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#2  
Old 02-22-05, 11:43 pm
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Re: Councilman Kandes...why did you want the investigation into the release of the ERI


I don't think we'll ever hear any finalization/closure on this investigation. It has been "swept" under the carpet, where it will intentionally be forgotten about.

It does not sit right in my mind that other cities have gotten this information; and, yet, those that pay the bills in LP have had to fight through the FOI--or now have to pay $1.00/page. There is indeed something wrong with this picture. (But, again, I don't ever think we will ever really know why this has played out as it has. And, why the change in their minds--because it is an election year, and this darn ERI issue won't go away?)


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#3  
Old 02-23-05, 12:31 am
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Re: Councilman Kandes...why did you want the investigation into the release of the ERI


Kandes is a political HO . He trys to look good to the people and suck up to mayor BROWSTAIN . He talks out of both sides of his mouth . Or as one resident put it ( quoting George Orwell ) Double speak . This is why I tell people he is no good . He is the worst councilman since Harry Klaft ( who walked out in the middle of his term) and the worst councilman of all time : Mark Kandes the WORST councilman ever .






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#4  
Old 09-04-05, 7:14 pm
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Re: Councilman Kandes...why did you want the investigation into the release of the ERI


I don't know if I'd call him the worst. But I certainly don't think he's the best, either.

A little before my time: But I understand that Kandes was quite involved in council meetings when he was a resident. I heard that he was so upset with LP politics that he took a run for council...earning enough votes to make him Council President.

Sometimes...often times...I can see that he has good intentions for the city. But I think he gets too wrapped in the politics of politics...which makes him less than favorable in my opinion.

I think he does a good job listening to residents when they bring up concerns. I think his follow through on said concerns are decent. But I think when it comes to certain issues (like the ERI, for instance)...he tries to play the political game. In the process, he tramples over everything he tries to stand for.

Above all, I think he tries too hard to emulate Mayor Brown...to the point where I get the impression that he does whatever Steve Brown does (or would do in his situation) instead of doing what Mark Kandes should do.

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#5  
Old 09-04-05, 7:29 pm
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Re: Councilman Kandes...why did you want the investigation into the release of the ERI


As I watch the council meetings and listen to the way in which he speaks, its as if the citizens are mere pulpers in his Kingdom. Thats the way he comes across to me. He is the one in the know, and we don't need to know.


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#6  
Old 09-04-05, 7:50 pm
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Re: Councilman Kandes...why did you want the investigation into the release of the ERI


Again, I think he tries to hard to emulate Mayor Brown...because that's exactly the impression I get from the Mayor when he speaks.

I may percieve it wrong...but it's how I see it. Perception becomes reality.


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#7  
Old 09-05-05, 6:45 pm
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Re: Councilman Kandes...why did you want the investigation into the release of the ERI


I Don't like Brown . the names he is called on this site and calling Kamdes the worst. Is not right. If Murphy or Ms Brady were treated like that People would go Bananas.

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#8  
Old 09-06-05, 3:40 pm
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Re: Councilman Kandes...why did you want the investigation into the release of the ERI


I don't dislike Brown, and think Kandes is OK at times, but if someone has an opinion that differs from mine, they are free to express it. Some may think he is the best, and some the worst, so what?
These public officials very often reap what they sew on this site. I've heard better and worst things said from a variety of citizens about Kandes and the others. While I may not totally agree with Jostle & RN222, I am interested in hearing their opinion whether I agree with it or not.


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Old 09-06-05, 4:02 pm
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Re: Councilman Kandes...why did you want the investigation into the release of the ERI


They can all express their op[nion not using terms like Brownstain ,Political HO used by RN222


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Old 09-06-05, 4:51 pm
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Re: Councilman Kandes...why did you want the investigation into the release of the ERI


Just a question what is ERI

I have not heard this before( live in a sound and site proof box)


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#11  
Old 09-06-05, 5:41 pm
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Exclamation Re: Councilman Kandes...why did you want the investigation into the release of the ERI


RMC2017:

The ERI is the Early Retirement Incentive program that the M/C unanimously voted to approve. It effectively used the pension to buyout 69 of some of our most seasoned city employees...including police and fire.

If you really want to learn about the mystery surrounding the ERI (and I think you really should), here is some information for you:

This a post I made regarding some interesting data I was able to extract, using the figures that we are privy to:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Veritas Scriptor
I've crunched some numbers of the ERI. I've come up with some interesting data. This next section is a both a tad techincal and lenghty, but I think you may find it worth the read. I'll begin with some background information on the ERI program (according to the documents available at City Hall).


To be eligible for the ERI, you must have 18 years of service with the city, or have attained age 55 with 15 years of service. In addition, you must have accepted the ERI by January of 2005.

So one can deduce that the ERI is geared toward people of any age who were hired during or before 1986, or people age 55 (or older) hired between 1986 and 1989. If you are 40 and were hired in 1986, you are elgible...the only time age 55 comes into play is if you were hired between the years 1986 and 1989.

(Kind of off the subject, but something I find ironic: Imagine a 22 year old hired in 1986 who is eligible for "accelerated" pension benefits at age 40 Whereas a 50 year old hired in 1990 is not eligible for the same "accelerated" pension benefits at age 64.)

Moving on...there's more. Stay with me on this.

If you subtract 18 years from 2004, you come up with 1986. One year before the 1987 multiplier interchange. This 1987 year is an interesting one. According to the ERI data provided by City Hall:
  • Employees hired after October 1, 1987, are subject to a 2.3% multiplier while employees hired before this date are subject to a 2.8% multiplier
  • The ERI documents that I have seen place a cap of the the lesser of 100% of their final average compensation or:
    • (If hired prior to October 1, 1987):
      • 78.4% of their final average compensation
    • (If hired after October 1, 1987):
      • 64.4% of their final average compensation
  • Annuity payments range from $60,000 to $70,000
Before I go on, let's look at some hypothetical examples of ERI benefits to a group of different people:


Quote:
Retiree A is earning $90,000 with 30 years of service and is subject to a 2.8% multiplier
  • 30 years plus the 5 year bonus = 35
  • 35 X 2.8% = 98%
  • 98% of $90,000 = $88,200
The problem here is that the ERI caps the benefit at 78.4%. So line 3 of this equation would read:
Quote:
3. 78.4% of $90,000 = $70,560
Note the (roughly) $70,000 annuity payment. This in line with the highest annuity payment, using the $60k to $70k spectrum.
Quote:

Retiree B is earning $90,000 with 20 years of service and is subject to a 2.8% multiplier
  • 20 years plus the 5 year bonus = 25 years
  • 25 X 2.8% = 70%
  • 70% of $90,000 = $63,000
Retiree B fell below their 78.4% cap, so they can enjoy the "full" benefit of the incentive
Quote:
Retiree C is earning $90,000 with 15 years of service and is subject to a 2.3% multiplier
  • 15 years plus 5 year bonus = 20
  • 20 X 2.3% = 46%
  • 46% of $90,000 = $41,400
Retiree C fell below their 64.4% cap, so they get to enjoy the "full" benefit of the incentive.
Quote:
  • Retiree D is earning $70,000 with 30 years of service and is subject to a 2.8% multiplier
  • 30 years plus the 5 year bonus = 35
  • 35 X 2.8% = 98%
  • 98% of $70,000 = $68,600
Again, the problem arises that the 78.4% cap has been breached. So line 3 of this equation would read:
Quote:
3. 78.4% of $70,000 = $54,880
Are we seeing a pattern here yet? Those with 30 years or more of service are being capped. In fact, any employee with more than 23 years of service will run into this cap problem. (23 years + 5 bonus years = 28 years. 28 years X 2.8% multiplier = 78.4%...the exact amount of the cap).

Quote:
Retiree E is earning $70,000 with 20 years of service and is subject to a 2.8% multiplier
  1. 20 years plus the 5 year bonus = 25
  2. 25 X 2.8% = 70%
  3. 70% of $70,000 = $49,000
Retiree E fell below their 78.4% cap, so they can enjoy the "full" benefit of the incentive.
Quote:
Retiree F is earning $70,000 with 15 years of service and would be subject to a 2.3% multiplier
  1. 15 years plus the 5 year bonus = 20
  2. 20 X 2.3 = 46%
  3. 46% of $70,000 = $32,200
RetireeF fell below their 78.4% cap, so they can enjoy the "full" benefit of the incentive.

Did you get all of that?

Now here's the kicker: According to what we know about the ERI, the only retirees that can exist in the above examples are 'A' and 'B' (annuity payments range from $60,000 to $70,000 remember?). And 'A' was essentially "penalized" by a cap, while 'B' was able to enjoy his "full" benefit.

The optimal tenure is 23 years (you will recieve a 78.4% FAC calculation and not violate any caps). In order to fall between the $60,000 to $70,000 annuity range, you could earn no more than $77,000 to $90,000 with 23 years of service.

Here's another kicker. This one may be a little tough to follow...but please do try:

Employees hired before October 1, 1987 are subject to a 78.4% cap. Employees hired after October 1, 1987 are subject to a 64.4% cap. What does this mean? Let's review:
Quote:
Employees with 23 years of service would have been hired before October 1, 1987 (2004 - 23 = 1981). When you add the 5 year bonus, a figure of 28 years is used with the multiplier of 2.8%. 28 X 2.8% = 78.4%.



I'm a little puzzled by the 64.4% cap on employees hired after October 1, 1987. Here's why:
Quote:
If you were hired on October 2nd of 1987, you are subject to a 50 basis point reduction in your multiplier; or 2.3%. If you took this ERI buyout, you could have no more than 17 years of service thus far (1987 + 17 = 2004). When you add the 5 year bonus to your 17 year tenure, a figure of 22 years is used with your multiplier of 2.3%. 22 X 2.3% = 50.6%



So why is the cap for someone hired after October 1, 1987 at 64.4%, when it is clearly impossible for them to come anywhere near that cap? Do the math yourself...they cannot possibly exceed a 50.6% FAC calculation.

The only way to hit the 64.4% cap is if:
Quote:
A person hired after October 1, 1987 (subject to a 2.3% multiplier) had 23 years of service. 23 years of service plus the 5 year bonus equals 28 years. 28 years X 2.3% = 64.4%
Umm....am I an idiot or is it really the year 2010? How can someone have 23 years of service betweenthe years of 1987 and 2004? Oh wait...they can't.

It sounds alot to me like this plan is geared towards people who are 55 or older and were hired between 1987 and 1989. Anyone hired prior to 1981 would exceed their 78.4% cap, while those hired after 1987 would not come close to capping out. You are not eligible if you were hired in 1987 unless you are currently 55 or older.

Consider this final example:
Quote:
Retiree G earns $100,000 with 18 years of service and is subject to a 2.8% multiplier
  • 18 years plus the 5 year bonus = 23
  • 23 X 2.8% = 64.4%
  • 64.4% of $100,000 = $64,400
Retiree G, if such a group of people exist, got the sweetest deal of all. They would be able to skate by on the minimum of 18 years of sevice, they qualify for the incentive regardless of age, and they barely avoid the "1987 penalty", thus recieving a 50 basis point bump in their multiplier; while at the same time not even coming close to hitting their 78.4% cap.

Had this person hired in just one year later, not only would they have to be age 55 (or older) to participate, but their multiplier would have dropped to 2.3%; thus lowering their annuity payments by a staggering $15,180 per year (for a total benefit of $55,660 per year as compared to $70,840).

Had they hired in just five years sooner, age requirements would still cease to exist and their multiplier would stay the same. However their FAC calculation would equal 81.2%, which would exceed the 78.4% cap. But we know this group doesn't exist, because the highest benefit is $70,000 a year.

As a side note, I find it ironic that (in this example) that 64.4% figure pops up again. That could just be a coincidence...but a very peculiar one, at that.

Remember This:
In order for annuity payments to range between $60k and $70k on a maximum cap of 78.4%, the salaries for each retiree would have to range between $77,000 and $90,000 per year. The salaries could be higher, as pointed out in my example above (Retiree G), but their time in service would have to be less than 23 years. For every year under 23, they can afford to earn more salary and still stay below the 78.4% cap and the known maximum annuity payment of $70,000. The "limit" of this rationale is a retiree who was earning a $150,000 annual salary with 15 years of service. Using a 2.3% multiplier and adding their 5 years of bonus service, their annuity payments would equal $69,000 a year. In other words, those who benefit most are those who earned higher salaries with less years of service.

Someone then asked me if the data I extracted appears to be geared toward a specific type of employee. My response:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Veritas Scriptor
Appears to be specific? I would say that's a safe assumption.
Employees with 18 years of service, regardless of age, are eligible.

18 years ago, the year was 1986. This is one year before the 1987 multiplier reduction.

If you were hired more than 23 years ago, you exceed your 78.4% cap.

Employees 55 or older with 15 years of service are eligible

If you are 55 or older and hired after October 1, 1987 but before 1989, you are eligible. However you are eligible at a reduced multiplier.

If you fall into the reduced multiplier bracket, it is mathematically impossible for you to even come close to hitting your 64.4% cap.

Here is what the plan document says about eligibility:


Eligibility: Employees who are vested in the retirement system will recieve full age and service pension benefits if they have 18 years or more of service, regardless of age or age 55 with 15 years of service.


But then it says this about the multiplier:




Municipal Employees hired prior to October 1, 1987 = 2.8% multiplier. Maximum benefit is the smaller of 78.4% of FAC or 100% of base salary; and Municipal Employees hired after October 1, 1987 = 2.3% multiplier; maximum benefit is the smaller of 64.4% of final average compensation or 100% of base salary, or limitations imposed upon qualified plans by the Internal Revenue Code, Section 415.


In a nutshell, the whole "after 1987" group is peculiar. In order to have been hired after 1987 and be eligible, you have to be 55 years or older. While the plan document doesn't come right out and say it, simple math will show this to be the case. If you have between 15 and 17 years of service, you would have been hired between the years 1987 amd 1989.

However any employee, regardless of age, with 18 years or more of service is also eligble. This means they would have been hired prior to 1987. But if you have worked more than 23 years with the city, those years in excess are virtually uncounted because of the 78.4% cap.

One may deduce that this plan is most advantagous to those employees hired between the years of 1981 and October of 1987. Why?

Your age is not a factor

You only need 18 years of service to qualify

Your 18 years of service (minimum) means you just barely avoid the 1987 multiplier reduction

If you've got 23 years of experience or less, you do not exceed the cap on the pension calculation

The cap on the pension calculation for persons hired after October 1987 is moot. Mathematically, it is impossible to reach a 64.4% calculation. A retiree would not be able to hit their 64.4% cap unless they retired in the year 2010 or beyond...but in order to qualify you have to have accepted the ERI by January of 2005.


These are just numerical data. Numbers don't lie. I'll leave all of you to ponder the theoritical possibilities.
Read the full thread here: http://yourlincolnpark.com/LPSForum/showthread.php?t=2188&page=4&highlight=pension+multiplier


Other Early Retirement Incentive buyout topics:


Interesting ERI conversation:
http://yourlincolnpark.com/LPSForum/showthread.php?t=2706&highlight=pension+multiplier

ERI pension multiplier information:
http://yourlincolnpark.com/LPSForum/showthread.php?t=2234&page=2&pp=10&highlight=pension+multiplier

To read all topics regarding the ERI, click here: http://yourlincolnpark.com/lpsforum/forumdisplay.php?f=109


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Old 09-06-05, 5:58 pm
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Re: Councilman Kandes...why did you want the investigation into the release of the ERI


I don't think this was accidental just look who family has benefited form this the most and there was three of them. Even the timing was set to make sure all of them got the good bye sweet deal.

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#13  
Old 09-06-05, 6:07 pm
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Re: Councilman Kandes...why did you want the investigation into the release of the ERI


Exactly what I was thinking, THE EYE.

Anyone who takes the time to read that, I welcome any questions seeking clarification.

The numbers don't lie. The proprieters of the ERI program have made gathering information about it extremely difficult (hmmm I wonder why?!)...but I was able to gather enough data to make those discoveries.

I wonder if they expected anyone to delve into it that deeply and crunch the numbers?

And my offer still stands from several months ago: If anyone can get their hands on anymore financial figures regarding the pension and ERI...send it to me and I will work the numbers over.

You can send them to me annonymously...I will not reveal the source.


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Old 09-06-05, 6:40 pm
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Exclamation Re: Councilman Kandes...why did you want the investigation into the release of the ERI


FYI: I was able to use some resources to dig up the following information about our Police & Fire Pension:
Quote:
State: Michigan
Retirement System: LINCOLN PARK POLICEMEN & FIREMEN RET SYSTEM
Type: City
Total Reciepts: $6,482,000
Total Payments: $11,970,000
Total Cash & Securities: $39,022,000
Total Active Membership: 98


These figures are as of 1999 (the latest date of census collection.)

Food for thought:
  • The average lump sum benefit paid out by the ERI was $175,000. Multiply this by 69 employees and that equals a $12.075 million lump sum withdrawal from the pension plan.
  • Friday December 31st 1999, the markets closed as follows:
    • Dow Jones Industrial Average: 11,497.12
    • S&P 500: 1469.25
    • NASDAQ: 4,069.31
  • As of Tuesday, September 6th 2005, the markets closed as follows:
    • Dow Jones Industrial Average: 10,589.24
    • S&P 500: 1,233.39
    • NASDAQ: 2,166.86
  • The difference in closing values for the three market indices averaged together equates to a 23.63% decline between 12/31/1999 and 09/06/2005.
What does this mean? It means that the pension plan could concievably (currently) have much fewer dollars than what the 1999 census suggests. By my estimates, it could have fewer than $20 million in it...as low as $17 million.




But we don't know for sure...because nobody will release these figures to us. What they will tell us, however, is that the pension is currently underfunded by approximately 20%.

Perhaps this explains why they voted to change the investment objective of the pension a few months ago (right after the ERI was implemented)? Maybe they were trying to "recoup" some dollars in the plan as a result of the unexpected expenses?

Disclosure: These figures are a result of my own personal findings and are not meant to be used for anything other than personal discussion purposes. I make no gaurantee as to the acuracy or validity of this information. Do you your own due dilligence and/or consult a tax/legal/financial professional before forming your own opinion.


Last edited by Veritas Scriptor : 09-06-05 at 6:56 pm. Reason: Disclosure added

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Old 09-07-05, 12:10 am
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Re: Councilman Kandes...why did you want the investigation into the release of the ERI


I belive the employees could not exceed there maximum years of service for a full pension with the additional 5 years. For example,if employee A can retire at a full pension with 28 years and they had 25 years of service they would not get the credit of the full five years. They would recieve 3 years of it to max them out. The full five years of credit would only benefit employees who had 23 years of service.


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Old 09-07-05, 2:19 am
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Re: Councilman Kandes...why did you want the investigation into the release of the ERI


Quote:
Originally Posted by hotpotato
I belive the employees could not exceed there maximum years of service for a full pension with the additional 5 years. For example,if employee A can retire at a full pension with 28 years and they had 25 years of service they would not get the credit of the full five years. They would recieve 3 years of it to max them out. The full five years of credit would only benefit employees who had 23 years of service.


Right. When you work backwards, 28 years of service (including the 5 year bonus) is the "maximum". I covered that in my previous dissertation.

But here is what my question/concern is (bear with me while I talk it through):
  • You need a minimum of 15 years of service to qualify (if you are age 55 or older by January of 2005), or you need a minimum of 18 years of service regardless of age. This means that you would have to be hired on or before January 1987 (regardless of your age) or January 1990 (if you're 55 or older) to qualify.
  • You had to have enrolled in the ERI by January of 2005
  • If you were hired in January of 1987, you would have 18 years of service. When you add in the 5 year bonus, you get 23 years. 23 years X 2.8% = 64.4%...the amount of the lowest pension cap (which is a moot point, because you actual qualify for the higher 78.4% cap)
  • If you were hired in January 1982, you get a 2.8% multiplier. You would have roughly 23 years of service. When you add in the 5 year bonus, you get 28 years. 28 years X 2.8% = 78.4%...the amount of the highest multiplier. (If you were hired prior to 01/01/1982, you get no added bonus').
  • If you were hired in November of 1987 (after the October cutoff), you get a 2.3% multiplier. You would have 17 years of service. When you add in the 5 year bonus, you get 22 years. 22 years X 2.3% = 50.6%...nowhere close to any of the caps.
  • If you were hired in January of 1990, you get a 2.3% multiplier. You would have 15 years of service. When you add in the 5 year bonus, you get 20 years. 20 years X 2.3% = 46%...also nowhere close to any of the caps.
The bottom line is that the cap on the pension calculation for persons hired after October 1987 is moot. Mathematically, it is impossible to reach a 64.4% calculation. A retiree would not be able to hit their 64.4% cap unless they retired in the year 2010 or beyond...but in order to qualify you have to have accepted the ERI by January of 2005.

Had you hired in just one year after the October 1987 cutoff, not only would you have to be age 55 (or older) to participate, but your multiplier would have dropped to 2.3%; thus lowering your annuity payments by a staggering 21% per year.

The only time I can come up with 64.4% is for an employee hired between January and October of 1987...that's when their pension calculation hit 64.4% of thier Final Average Compensation (FAC). Except in this case, it doesn't even matter, because they are subject to the higher 78.4% cap.

To sum all this up, there is absolutely no point in placing a 64.4% cap on employees hired after October of 1987. They would have to retire in the year 2010 or beyond in order to hit the cap. No matter how you look at it, the 64.4% figure is moot. Either it's an error...or it's a smoke and mirrors attempt at portraying something that doesn't (because it mathematically cannot) exist.

Something doesn't seem right about it. That's just me, your opinions may differ.




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